City of Sound is about cities, design, architecture, music, media, politics and more. Written by Dan Hill since 2001.

Fantastic relentlessly brilliant article by Wayne Bremser at harlem.org about the importance of what we now call metadata in specialist music. Specifically, how the basic lingua franca in jazz – of information around composers, sidemen, album sleeves and recording dates – is being diminished by the likes of the otherwise excellent iTunes Music Store. (iTMS is picked as market leader and exemplar thus far).

This isn’t just the diminution of the physical product around music – though no genre has been hit as hard as jazz has by the move away from the 12″ record sleeve (e.g. Reid Miles). Now all we have is a thumbnail, at best (see harlem.org’s comparison chart).

No, this is also about how the content object models that most digital music experiences employ are generally incomplete. iTunes has a few useful tags (year, composer etc.) but Bremser’s article makes clear how limited it really is. No real liner notes, no indication of sidemen (absolutely key for jazz, where the ‘Great Man’ theory of art is pretty misplaced), and a particular bugbear of mine – utterly erroneous release dates, due to the music industry’s focus on reissues. So we see iTMS placing the record Coleman Hawkins Encounters Ben Webster as coming out in, er, 1997. It actually came out in 1957, fact-fans. iTunes Music Store is littered with such problems. I’d imagine the vast majority of release dates there are just plain wrong.

Get Info versus the label from a 50s Miles single Bremser cleverly compares the information contained on a single original record label from a 1950s Miles Davis single with the paucity of that available via a quick ‘get info’ on the corresponding file from iTMS. No contest.

This doesn’t even begin to get into the really deep metadata-based relationships which can make enjoying music such a rich experience. The stakes are high, and get right to the heart of why music a) is quite so fundamental, and b) persists at all:

“Jazz has remained a very accessible art form partly because fans are educated by their own music collections. Albums employed text, photographs and graphic design to illustrate how a network of artists created a musical language together. Without the physical album, online music stores will play a much larger role in teaching new listeners about jazz. While institutions, educators and preservationists will soon face the same challenges, music stores will be the first to use digital interfaces to educate the listening public about jazz. The digital music era should offer listeners more information about jazz, not less. The stakes are high. If jazz fragments into millions of digital files, future generations could be left with a maddening cultural jigsaw puzzle. This music could quickly become one of the mysterious art forms that is translated to the public by a small group of experts.”

A call to arms if ever I heard one.

Colin Buttimer has previously written about the potential and rationale for multimedia, narrative and physical product persisting into this digital age. Wayne Bremser’s excellent article picks out the rationale for sorting the fundamental metadata while we’re at. And let’s do it now, while we can.

harlem.org: Jazz in 2500? iTunes versus Preservation

Postscript: Lest we lose site of things though, this fine roundtable of mp3 bloggers over at The Morning News should give us a sense of perspective:

Oliver: “… Record stores are not very much known for their quality of consumer service, but I never go to a record store in hopes of clicking with the staff. It’s all about the hunt, especially at used record stores, to see what bits of esoterica you can stir up. That just doesn’t work with digital media—there’s much randomness to be sure, but you don’t have much to go on besides a file name. Much as I love the convenience of digital media, the tangibility of a physical product—be it a CD, DVD, LP, etc.—still matters and I don’t see this disappearing completely. But, forced to imagine such a nightmare scenario…what I’d miss most is what I just said, the tangibility of the packaging, from cover art to liner notes. One thing about used LPs, too, is that you find these personal messages at times—signed copies of band LPs, dedications on records sent as gifts. Digital media will never (well, never say never) have those qualities.”

Andrew: Honestly, I don’t ever see it happening. It’s a possibility that the industry will go that route with new music, but there’s so much music already put to physical media; to assume that this would render record stores nonexistent is just foolish. Records, compact discs, cassettes, etc. will always be trading hands in some form or another, so there will always be stores that sell them. Previously recorded music media isn’t just going to disappear because mp3s are the chosen format. I find that readers of my site are into discovering more obscure music, much of which they would not be able to purchase on any format (or would be forced to pay exorbitant used prices on eBay or from specialty dealers). The mp3s compliment their record-buying habits, they don’t replace them.”

The Morning News: Roundtable: mp3 Bloggers

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25 responses to “Bad metadata is killing music”

  1. Test Avatar

    Metadata and music

    Dan Hill points to this marvellous article from harlem.org on how the amount of information we have about the…

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  2. Mark Avatar

    Wholeheartedly agree. I confess I haven’t read through the comprehensive set of links provided (yet) in the post, but it seems to me there are two key problems with iTMS and the culture of downloading digital music: 1. The tangible aspect of brought music (be it vinyl, CD, etc) I personally would always buy a non-virtual version of, say the latest Spiritualized release, because its as much about the package as the music (tactile, quality of design, etc), and 2. The liner notes – who produced the record? who played, management? even record label! (there’s no indication on iTMS on the artist’s record label) I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve come across a name on some album’s credits that I’ve connected with another CD in my collection, or has led me to pursue other artists and performers. Buying through iTMS is great (and getting better as the number of indies is slowly growing) but I do miss that experience of opening a new CD/LP, thumbing through the inlay, reading the notes… In answer to problem 2, perhaps the onus is on record labels/artists to supply such information on their websites, and if so, some standardisation would be pertinent – something for the music stores to tap into in the future.. (XML, RSS?). in the same way that both iTMS and the Beeb utilise the same data source for artist biographies and discographies now?

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  3. Phil Gyford's Writing Avatar

    MP3 blogs and the record labels

    A roundtable discussion of MP3 bloggers seems remarkably optimistic about the record labels’ stance on people giving away their artists’ music. A flurry of letters from lawyers seems much more likely to me…

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  4. Richard Helms Avatar
    Richard Helms

    People today dont care about any of this. Music is no longer about individual artists; it is about groupings of artists, loose groupings in fact, in coagulated lists on ipods and itunes.
    They dont care about how thier music sounds. All they care about is that they have lots of it, and that they can use it to shut out the outside world with headphones while the walk the streets like zombies, striding along in an imaginary film in which they are the central character, to a soundtrack of their favourite music.
    Anyone that cares about artists and music today creates websites that have all the information that you need. These discography websites are comprehensive – for as long as they are online of course.
    Music, what it is, why and how it is listened to and the relationship the young have with it has changed beyond recognition. I believe that popular music, as it has been expressed since the 1950s is now finished. No one listens to music in the way that the previous generations did, the people who make it dont take their work as seriously as the previous generations did or artists did, and this, believe it or not, is not a tragedy.
    No one today mourns the passing of the “Roaring Twenties”; no one cries for the days of Flappers and young bucks saying 23 Skidoo!. It is the same with popular music today; the iPod wearing, headphone and earpod using youth dont care about music; its just another type of software for them to play with, another type of thing to put into their computers, and this is normal, and acceptable, because nothing lasts forever, not even Jazz, Rock, Folk, or any of the great (and by God, they really were great) artists who filled the world with sublime compositions.
    This article about the death of Meta data is actually talking about a symptom of the death of pop music. The fact that he calls it Meta data and not information is signifigant; Meta data is information attached to a file for a computer to index it is very different to information that is printed on a sleeve for you, a human being to read.
    What he is talking about, obliquely, is the fact that music is now detached from people. Before, we had a tactile relationship with sound carriers; each piece of music had it own carrier, and you had a relationship with it; now that is gone. You only have a relationship with your iPod, which means you have a relationship with a computer, not the sound carrier that holds an individual artists work.
    This is separate from but not different to the new relationship people have with the music itself, as I said in the beginning; people have relationships with globs of music, and not individual works or artists.
    Bad metadata is not killing music. Music is already dead. This is something that you are going to have to deal with. No amount of essay writing meta tagging or remorse is going to bring it back. If you enjoyed it, be thankful that you were able to, if you never will, dont pine over something you never had. You dont care that your catchphrase wasnt “Oh You Kid!” do you? Of course not. Live in your own time. In fact, Make your time.

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  5. Dan Avatar

    Well there’s another call to arms!
    I agree with a lot of what you’re saying – if you click the ‘Music’ category somewhere down the right-hand side of this page, you’ll see how I’ve been enthusiastically tracking what happens when music becomes free of its physical form (e.g. recently, discussions around iMixes or iPods etc.) … So I see where you’re coming from – and like I say, I partly agree …
    But (and you knew that was coming didn’t you 😉
    I think you’re guessing HUGELY about the scale of changes. We just don’t know a lot about this stuff yet … Put basically, we don’t know whether people’s attachment is to music (as in non-physically dependent organised sound, tied to cultural movements etc.) or to music + objects (the former, but also including a tactile relationship with physical objects). I’ve had some interesting conversations with people who have reminded me of the importance of objects in general in our culture(s) … I mean, I’m someone who is rupping and chucking all my CDs and listen to nothing but iTunes – don’t get me wrong – but I’m keeping my vinyl 😉 … and boxsets, books etc.
    Now, I’m no doubt a particular kind of consumer – the kind you say isn’t going to exist in the future (or am I the kind you are?!) … but there’s little meaningful useful evidence to suggest this is quite as black and white as you make out.
    For instance, you simply can’t say “people today don’t care about this”. It’s hugely important to bear in mind that, for all the warranted success of iPod/iTunes, it’s still an extreme minority at this point. Early adopters, nothing more. A few million in circulation – which is absolutely nothing compared to the incredible number and variety of ways the majority of people experience music … Including ‘the kids’.
    Just a caveat, that’s all. Not to say it couldn’t be significant, but it’s very very early days …
    As to metadata – well, we all know what that is – it doesn’t make it any less important right now. The harlem.org article is right because it picks apart the basic communication around a particular kind of music – jazz – which will persist, albeit as a niche genre. That communication is not ‘platform-specific’ – but arguably fairly deep culturally.
    All the ‘loose groupings’ and ‘coagulated lists’ you refer to will be enhanced by better metadata – put simply, people do care about music, and will rely on finding new music – systems enabled by decent, rich metadata will be part of that process. And pointing to Google isn’t enough, rich as that is. We’ve got to try harder than that. Believe it or not ‘loose groupings’ and ‘coagulated lists’ around music are what people have been doing for years – before ‘data’ never mind ‘metadata’.
    I’m slightly disturbed by your statements about ‘kids today’ too. How can you say that they don’t care about music, as you understand it? That’s simply not true. It’s a gross generalisation based on a highly selective sampling of some vague observations. Zombies indeed! That’s pretty bleak, and doesn’t tally with my experience. There are entirely new ways of listening to music, but a) they rarely completely replace the old, and b) they will still be based on a basic attachment to music as cultural production. Recorded phonography may be a 60-year blip (just as our iPods will be a far shorter blip) – belief in music isn’t. And to say that musicians don’t take their music as seriously either? Nonsense. Many musicians in the 30s, 50s, 70s didn’t take it very seriously at all either. Many did. Equally, many take it very seriously today. Across more genres than ever. Just as formats don’t really disappear now (cassette, vinyl, CD, DVD, mp3 – all are around), genres don’t either (check the ‘Early Music’ rack in a record store). There is no death of music – my title was deliberately provocative, playing on the ‘home taping is killing music’ slogan from the 80s. I don’t actually believe the title – I do think there’s value in the article.
    As for sound carriers – how is the iPod as sound carrier different to vinyl as sound carrier? By virtue of the stuff harlem.org picks out. However, he’s indicating that much of that meaning could be present in these new ‘sound carriers’ too (albeit not as tactile as the 12″ sleeve – but maybe we’ll find a new reason for an individual tactile relationship too – you may recall how magazines where going to be put out of business by websites; and look now – a more thriving magazine market than ever, based around refocusing on the physical properties of format and tactility. Reinvention is more likely than extinction). Your point about ‘make your own time’ is bang on – that’s exactly what I was suggesting.
    Overall it’s difficult to tell whether your comment is techno-utopian or techno-dystopian – but it is rather deterministic either way. Actually, it’s clear that you are pretty unhappy about where music is right now. Your language and tone are fairly transparently bleak (“music is already dead” versus “by god, (it) was really great” etc.)
    But relax – iIt’s unlikely things change this quickly, and people caring about music is something which stretches back centuries and centuries – the form changes, yes, but attachment to music persists. I agree with your call to arms to ‘make our own time’ in terms of the next generation’s attachment to music – I just disagree on the details of how we should do that. I’d rather we got involved to make it as good as possible.

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  6. Dan Avatar

    Folks should check the TrackBack from Matt Locke above – or more conveniently click him from here. In addition to the facets I mentioned here, with an example from jazz – see how even location can create rich relationships – Matt ‘Cratedigger’ Locke referred to another couple of key facets for him: producer and ‘samplee’ (as opposed to sampler). I guess Richard would be right were he to say that this activity is niche – (What? Chas and Dave? niche?!) – but surely one of contemporary culture’s key characteristics is its rich plurality of niches, often in opposition to monolithic global movements. Either way, it’s all about the metadata.

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  7. Richard Helms Avatar
    Richard Helms

    Well there’s another call to arms!
    “To the death, for life”
    But (and you knew that was coming didn’t you 😉
    “Dan you ignorant slut!”
    I think you’re guessing HUGELY about the scale of changes.
    Yes, I am guessing, although I prefer to call it extrapolating. My predictions about what would happen when digital came in and took over everything have all come true, and extrapolating into the future, we will see the complete disappearance of physical sound carriers in favour of files, and maybe even DRM files if the monopoly has its way. I could be completely wrong, and if someone else has another prediction, I would eagerly read it.
    We just don’t know a lot about this stuff yet … Put basically, we don’t know whether people’s attachment is to music (as in non-physically dependent organised sound, tied to cultural movements etc.) or to music + objects (the former, but also including a tactile relationship with physical objects).
    People replaced their vinyl as soon as they could; that tactile, rich, beautiful looking acting smelling and sounding format, was dumped for a shiny piece of shit which just by the fact of how small it is, is inferior to 12″ vinyl. What this demonstrates is that people will dump a format for convenience, and with files, you have the most convenient format of all time; one with no physical form factor. People care more about convenience than the sensory experiences that you and I connect with. This is a fact, and using this information, we can make a good educated guess at how they will perform in the future. iTunes is performing very well, and of course, there are billions of mp3s floating out there. I think it’s a done deal.
    I’ve had some interesting conversations with people who have reminded me of the importance of objects in general in our culture(s) … I mean, I’m someone who is rupping and chucking all my CDs and listen to nothing but iTunes – don’t get me wrong – but I’m keeping my vinyl 😉 … and boxsets, books etc.
    You are the exception. Most people got rid of their vinyl as I said above, and CDs are certainly next.
    Now, I’m no doubt a particular kind of consumer – the kind you say isn’t going to exist in the future (or am I the kind you are?!)
    You are! I have all of the vinyl I have ever bought, and don’t give a flying fuck about my CDs except the ones that I will never be able to find again, or have not bothered to rip.
    … but there’s little meaningful useful evidence to suggest this is quite as black and white as you make out.
    There is evidence of this I’m afraid, to be found in the wild popularity of filesharing and “rupping” as more and more people get computers and mp3 players, we will see the trend towards dematerialization of music accelerate. CD sales will diminish, iTunes and the like will grow and filesharing will explode. Now that is what I call a prediction!
    For instance, you simply can’t say “people today don’t care about this”. It’s hugely important to bear in mind that, for all the warranted success of iPod/iTunes, it’s still an extreme minority at this point.
    But its growing, and growing, and everyone it touches falls in love with it, the simplicity of it, the convenience of it, the insatiableness of it; 10,000 songs on one device, and all of them free, portable. Its seductive in ways CDs and Vinyl could never be
    Early adopters, nothing more.
    Like color TV and cellular phones. How many times does this have to happen before everyone sees the pattern? You can’t possibly be saying that an iPod is less attractive than a cellular phone? Every teenager in the UK has a cell phone; its not a great leap to imagine every teenager with an iPod, especially an iPod mini.
    As to metadata – well, we all know what that is – it doesn’t make it any less important right now. The harlem.org article is right because it picks apart the basic communication around a particular kind of music – jazz – which will persist, albeit as a niche genre. That communication is not ‘platform-specific’ – but arguably fairly deep culturally.
    All the ‘loose groupings’ and ‘coagulated lists’ you refer to will be enhanced by better metadata – put simply, people do care about music, and will rely on finding new music – systems enabled by decent, rich metadata will be part of that process. And pointing to Google isn’t enough, rich as that is. We’ve got to try harder than that.
    You are right about this, BUT have you ever spent time re tagging files? I have almost 10,000 files, and there is NO WAY IN HECK that I am going to re tag them when Apple releases a comprehensive ID3 replacement. That means that there will be billions of files floating around for decades with limited meta information. These files will probably poison the pool forever – unless someone writes some tools that will sweep up your files for you, but would you trust a machine to do this for you? Who knows?
    Believe it or not ‘loose groupings’ and ‘coagulated lists’ around music are what people have been doing for years – before ‘data’ never mind ‘metadata’.
    Yes, with photocopiers and cassettes, but back then, you were still dealing with real music carriers and not files. The tapes had covers…. you know the score.
    I’m slightly disturbed by your statements about ‘kids today’ too. How can you say that they don’t care about music, as you understand it?
    Because what they are producing is shit.
    That’s simply not true. It’s a gross generalisation based on a highly selective sampling of some vague observations. Zombies indeed! That’s pretty bleak, and doesn’t tally with my experience.
    I say the same thing to everyone who stands up for the losers of today; where is the music?! Make me a list of groups and CDs to listen to, I will leech them all and then buy the CDs and t-shirts and follow them to the end of the earth. I notice Dan, that you do not list any groups in this section of your post. Back when there was something to listen to, you would have immediately listed a slew of groups to prove your point, but the fact is, there is nothing to list!
    There are entirely new ways of listening to music, but a) they rarely completely replace the old, and b) they will still be based on a basic attachment to music as cultural production. Recorded phonography may be a 60-year blip (just as our iPods will be a far shorter blip) – belief in music isn’t.
    I am not talking about belief; I am talking about Beef, as in “where is the beef?”
    And to say that musicians don’t take their music as seriously either? Nonsense. Many musicians in the 30s, 50s, 70s didn’t take it very seriously at all either. Many did. Equally, many take it very seriously today. Across more genres than ever.
    I completely agree with you, only the last part of that sentence is the key difference between today and yesterday. Today there are no “many did” music makers. In the 30s, 50,s and 70s and 80’s there were many MANY music makers who mattered, took their art seriously, bled for it, and moved our souls. There is no equivalent today, if there are, name them. And as for more genres than ever, the proliferation of genres is a symptom of the weakness of the ideas of these pretenders.
    Just as formats don’t really disappear now (cassette, vinyl, CD, DVD, mp3 – all are around), genres don’t either (check the ‘Early Music’ rack in a record store).
    78s? Doo Wop?
    There is no death of music – my title was deliberately provocative, playing on the ‘home taping is killing music’ slogan from the 80s. I don’t actually believe the title – I do think there’s value in the article.
    So do I, there is value in that article, and in your post; they make you think, they cause replies to spawn, and in this day and age, we need to think very hard about everything, as it all falls to pieces before our eyes and a new era speed up towards us from over the horizon
    As for sound carriers – how is the iPod as sound carrier different to vinyl as sound carrier?
    You just said you are dumping your cds and keeping all your vinyl and you ask this question?!! Don’t even go there Dan!
    By virtue of the stuff harlem.org picks out. However, he’s indicating that much of that meaning could be present in these new ‘sound carriers’ too (albeit not as tactile as the 12″ sleeve – but maybe we’ll find a new reason for an individual tactile relationship too –
    Touch is good, that is reason enough. There is something to be said for having access to every recording ever made, and that something is that “it’s a good thing”, but in the final analysis, there is nothing like a physical sound carrier with printed information on it, just like there is nothing like kissing your girlfriend?or someone else’s girlfriend when you are drunk. Records are sexy files are asexual. Everyone needs sex. Without sex, there would be no people. Without physical sound carriers, there is no music, there is no love. Everything dies.
    you may recall how magazines where going to be put out of business by websites; and look now – a more thriving magazine market than ever, based around refocusing on the physical properties of format and tactility. Reinvention is more likely than extinction).
    Vinyl is gone. There is no one left who even knows how to master it properly – believe me, I would dearly love for it, and analogue production and manufacturing to come back, but the young people today do not want it, business does not want it, and so it will not come back. Magazines are a different proposition. Everyone reads. They use their eyes to read. If you are short sighted you get glasses to make the world look sharp. With music, everyone is hearing a blurry world, and there is no optician for the ears that you can see to make you hear properly. This is why CD spread like wildfire, even though it sounds like a shortsighted man sees. Print is a different world, there is no equivalent to paper presently; with sound, files can and have replaced sound carriers because they can be pumped out by any type of speaker, and be accepted by the audibly blind. You cannot print a magazine on rivita and expect to sell it to someone to read.
    Your point about ‘make your own time’ is bang on – that’s exactly what I was suggesting.
    My point about “make your time” was a quote from “all your base are belong to us”, “Make your time” means, “pray to whatever gods one such as you might worship, for this is your final hour”.
    Overall it’s difficult to tell whether your comment is techno-utopian or techno-dystopian – but it is rather deterministic either way.
    By that do you mean Darwinian? I call em like I see em; files as the most prevalent way to consume music is the future.
    Actually, it’s clear that you are pretty unhappy about where music is right now. Your language and tone are fairly transparently bleak (“music is already dead” versus “by god, (it) was really great” etc.)
    That is a part of the equation that not only does no one want to hear much less believe, but that is utterly pointless to repeat. But I’ll do it for you Dan, since I feel that you will understand what I am going to unleash.
    It was fucking brilliant. We had the greatest bands ever; we were spoiled for choice every week, with dozens of groups playing the most innovative music ever made. We had to make up reasons why we could not like certain musics there was so much choice. We thought the world had changed forever in our favour, that our groups, and the groups we believed would inevitably follow them would be there to entertain us forever and ever. The music was innovative; groups deliberately refrained from copying each other and the past. They were conscious of what they were making, driven by philosophy and an understanding of their place in history. There were so many records, so many labels, so many characters, a music press that was highly intelligent, relevant eager to bring you new sounds, trustworthy, noble, entertaining, and prolific. We had it all, AND the music of the past to enrich our lives. We looked forward to the future, as new instruments made sounds that we and no one else had ever heard before, it looked like there was an open ended future of thrills innovation and great times. Oh yes, it was the best time ever, and we have the recordings and writings to prove it. TO PROOVE IT!
    But relax – its unlikely things change this quickly, and people caring about music is something which stretches back centuries and centuries – the form changes, yes, but attachment to music persists.
    Please don’t give me this Bo Selecta Avid Merion doing Michael Jackson in jail with Ronnie Barker “taint so bad!” because it IS so bad, it IS terrible, a part of our lives that made us who we are is OVER and….it just SUCKS.
    I agree with your call to arms to ‘make our own time’ in terms of the next generation’s attachment to music – I just disagree on the details of how we should do that. I’d rather we got involved to make it as good as possible.
    The only way this can happen is if you form the next Smiths, or the next Stone Roses, or the next Joy division, or the next Velvet Underground, Beach Boys, Rolling Stones.
    You cant do that. No one on this earth can do that. That is the point. That is the tragedy.

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  8. Dan Avatar

    Good comment, Richard. Though I don’t see why you get to be played by Dan Ackroyd 😉
    I don’t want to get into a conversation RE musical taste. They’re as pointless as they are entertaining. And if you really believe there’s no good music around at the moment, so be it. I suspect no-one’s gonna change your mind about that, least of all me. (though if you want a list, there’s my Audioscrobbler profile and ‘Recent listening’ lists up on the right-hand side – there are new things there, and old things there. But I don’t think we’re going to make much headway here…)
    In short, I guess we’re both saying that filesharing and ‘digital music’ is clearly important, growing hugely etc. Again, if you read this blog, you’ll see what I think about all that – I’m not going into it here.
    I guess I don’t necessarily see that as relentlessly negative as you do, perhaps as I think there’s a lot of value in that new way of listening (cf. Audioscrobbler) and also as I believe that we don’t tend to utterly replace things – there is still Doo Wop, both historical recordings of and live performances of. You could probably get 78s if you wanted them. Vinyl sales are steady in dance music. People are reissuing stuff on 180gram. I take your point about mastering, but I’m no audiophile. I like the graphic design 😉
    All these are niche activities, but all exist. (random aside: the growing demographic is older people, not younger).
    Yes the patterns are there – I completely agree with you – but there are other patterns, which paint a very complex picture. Everything you list about the iPod in terms of convenience etc. I’d agree with. It’s hugely seductive. Quite brilliant. I have two.
    And the cellphone analogy is an interesting one, as that may be when filesharing really does become mainstream. There are too many devices in my bag, and why not build on the one everyone already has, as you point out.
    But what happens when you have 10000 songs in your pocket? Most people have never had anything like that, and metadata will be needed to make a good experience out of that volume. The closest thing people have had to that, outside the likes of you and I (collectors etc.), is radio. Which is bloody good in the UK, and could be seen as shorthand for metadata-based experience. What happens when you have no files in your pocket but just a wireless connection to the motherlode of all fileshares in the sky – you possess no music, but all music is available to you, whenever, wherever? That surely is one logical conclusion of the file-based argument. How are we going to navigate through that? Actually select a listening experience which makes sense; is pleasurable, or challenging; provides meaning or solace; imbues you with cultural cache or fries your brain; provides your own personal soundtrack, or someone else’s … we’re going to need some way of slicing and dicing, mixing and editing.
    I just think that those of us in charge of systems which can produce decent metadata, should. Then at least these niche musics and rich music experiences stand a chance of remaining meaningful to those looking for meaning in music.

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  9. metamanda>>weblog Avatar

    itunes and crappy metadata

    A great article on how the inadequate tagging in iTunes (and iTunes music store) is hurting the preservation of music. harlem.org: itunes versus jazz preservation Removing the identity of artists is one of digital music’s largest threats to jazz preser…

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  10. metamanda>>weblog Avatar

    itunes and crappy metadata

    A great article on how the inadequate tagging in iTunes (and iTunes music store) is hurting the preservation of music. harlem.org: itunes versus jazz preservation Removing the identity of artists is one of digital music’s largest threats to jazz preser…

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  11. Wayne Bremser Avatar
    Wayne Bremser

    Hey all, I wrote the harlem.org article. Richard, a lot of what you point out is true right now in the US and Western Europe.
    Most of the article was about specific aspects of current digital music stores that are lacking for jazz. But the larger issue that I didn’t have time to look at is not how the broad culture takes a type of music and packages/preserves it for future generations, whether they know what they are doing or not, but how a smaller group of fanatics or priests of the art makes a real effort at preservation. Your statements make it sound like we don’t have access to any classical music or folk music before the recorded age, but we do. So we can look at past success stories and make efforts to protect what we love the most.
    Its tough to predict the future and decide what we should save and how to save it so it makes some sense to people in the future, but I suspect one way of doing it is to try to package/preserve a form of music like jazz and present it to people living today in very different countries and cultures. Americans might not care about jazz that much, maybe Russians or Burmese do. And what do they need to understand it if they are just discovering it?

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  12. Dan Avatar

    Thanks Wayne – good comment.
    It’s worth pointing out that Russia (and other bits of Eastern Europe) has a fairly strong jazz scene and has had for years … I guess I’d conclude, in terms of jazz, that there is fantastic jazz music (and jazz/improvisation-derived music) being produced now, and there’s a big crowd of people are enjoying it. It’s just that it will never be ‘pop’ again – as it was in the 1940s and 1950s.
    Like Frank Zappa said, jazz ain’t dead – it just kinda smells funny. I guess we can extend that to another of FZ’s loves, doo wop, and a whole slew of genres. But none of them are dead, despite all the changes in format, culture etc. As you point out, Wayne, we can still obtain, enjoy, experience folk, and blues, and yes, jazz …. that was my point about early music – stuff which is nearly 1000 years old is readily available from high street record stores! I’m not sure I agree totally with the language of preservation/packaging – though that is part of what we have to do – but music is a living thing too, even jazz!
    But we all agree that there are broad scale changes here – with big opportunities and big problems for musics, both specialist and mainstream. We may disagree about the rate of change before it becomes mainstream cultural activity – but we do need to figure out ways of ensuring it becomes mainstream in the most useful, most meaningful ways. There is more to music than just files. It’s not simply a question of designing an operating system for this stuff – or if it is, it’s a far richer one than we have currently.
    Back to popularity, and Richard’s points might be useful in terms of thinking about whether there will be any kinds of truly popular music going forward … either way, the digital environment will likely be the location for it … By coincidence, I’m checking this quote over at Matt Jones’s site from the head of music for Electronic Arts (major video games company):

    “In a typical EA sports game: songs rotate 2x an hour of gameplay, and games are approx 50 hours of game play. A song featured in fifa will be played 700million times… more than any no.1 record in any country.”

    That’s another challenge (it’s not just the iPod/PC-based organisation of music). But if games keep developing into a richer cultural form (cf. Grand Theft Auto) their use of music needs to become more sophisticated. For instance, if a version of Grand Theft Auto is set in 1950s New York, say, we’re going to want a virtual Birdland, with Dizzy, Miles, Bird, and Trane all tootling away in the background. This is a huge opportunity for music discovery – and bringing new generations to that great music. But those potential learning networks will only form where there are decent metadata connections to hook on to.

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  13. Richard Helms Avatar
    Richard Helms

    MT comments suck for threaded conversations dont they?
    Acroyd; Old geezers privilege mate!
    Conversations about musical taste are useful, because you can learn from different people and the judgments they make, to make you a better listener.
    I’ve been on audioscrobbler since 2001, ill for sure look you up, and see what you have been listening to, and I will also check out your stuff on the right. BUT (and thats a big but) If I find that what you have recommended is not up to scratch, I will have to invoice you for the time that you made me spend. I am worth £1000 per hour by the way.
    I don’t see it all as relentlessly negative, though it may come across like that thanks to the “imperialist running dogs must die” language, there are a few things that i have fallen in love with recently, like the priceless Ladytron, and a near endless supply of Indian pop music which i never tire of, to give two examples. I do think that we need to replace and replenish the supply of artists who are making new and interesting work, otherwise, we will be in an even worse famine than the one we are in now.
    Vinyl sales have been decimated, this is something we have to learn to live with. They are not significant, and I AM an audiophile, and I can tell you that the pressings of today suck hard. 180g virgin vinyl pressed from polished stampers, mastered from DATs holding mixes made on digital desks is total rubbish, and that is a fact. Vinyl is dead. The audience for it is destroyed. Im sorry it had to end this way, but we will always be friends.
    The reason why I posted on your blog is because your masthead made me draw breath. Its utterly beautiful; when you say “i like the graphic design” …. I can feel that you know what you are talking about.
    You have two iPods. Nuff said. You have been seduced. I have 40G of music. I have been seduced. Birds of a feather. What this says to me is that once everyone has a music player, in the same way that almost everyone has a cellular telephone, There will be a huge ecosystem within which files become the standard way people listen to music. No one will care about meta data, other than the song name and the name of the performer. The interfaces will be the polar opposite of a record sleeve, just like the flip phone screens. No one will be interested in what we love, and that is fine; what I am saying is that it is happening, will be the scenario and that we should be ready to deal with it.
    There is no problem with having 10,000 songs on an iPod in terms of finding a single song, or sifting through collections, and you do not need alot of information to make this happen; this is another reason why the incentive to maintain and extend the ID3 standard will be very low.
    The mother-lode in the sky; this is the ultimate nightmare. The DRM merchants want us to never posses music again. They want us to buy each thing we hear on a one by each basis, until the end of time. As for how we are going to navigate through it, Audioscrobbler, LastFM and other recommendation services point the way, and then of course, the monopoly will be happy to guide you through it 😮 lets hope that this doesn’t happen.
    I try and tag all my files properly; its a nightmare getting files that have no info in them save the file name. Getting files from other people, especially in big batches can be a pain, but surprisingly, a small amount of sorting; putting them in their own directory and noting the date they were added, and group tagging of the basic details is usually enough. Even that is a pain; imagine your typical 16 year old or a couldn’t care less 45 year old taking the time to do this…
    Another thing I agree with re the original article, there will emerge, a class of experts who will hold all this knowledge, who, like curators and librarians, will be the ultimate sources of definitive information and interpretation of different musics. All other sources will be out of the hands of the public, as music consumption is dematerialized. They will have to buy books detailing who did what when and with whom. People will argue about the facts…at least some people will…what a life!

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  14. wayne Avatar
    wayne

    Dan, I was aware of the popularity of jazz in eastern Europe and Russia, I just put Russia in as an example – if it became popular there – how did it happen – what information did those listeners want and need to learn about it.
    Your bringing up video games was interesting. While video games have obviously had a strong cultural element (and have influenced contemporary culture in many ways), they haven’t readily adopted past culture. Maybe this is because of money to buy rights to properties.
    Anyway, part of the danger of this as it relates to jazz is the next generation could be left with a very shallow introduction to jazz in online music stores (a list of top hit songs headed by “What a Wonderful World” and that’s it). So yeah, maybe the introduction/education process will come from somewhere else. Maybe that’s where those of us who care should focus efforts.
    Related, I just saw the trailer for “Ray” (about Ray Charles with Jammi Foxx) on the Apple site and was struck about how in 2 minutes they showed the entire plot of the film (why do they do this?) but also how the film looked pretty good and how they captured the era. When was the last time there was a big Hollywood film about jazz? (please don’t say “Chicago”!) Was it “Bird” back in the 80s? Or “Mo Betta Blues” a few years later? Similar to video games, I think one hit film about the era could do a lot to make up for where music stores fail.

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  15. martha Avatar
    martha

    I used to work at a huge music distributor, Alliance Entertainment (www.aent.com). At the time, they purchased the http://www.allmusic.com company. This company was started by a rabid music fan. They have a ton of music metadata, including liner notes info, music maps, etc. The only competitor to AMG is Muse. I’m not sure which database iTunes is using, but there is good data out there for those who want to use it.

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  16. Through The Wire Avatar

    Installazione Sono-botanica Nella Città del Suono

    Somewhere along the line I subscribed to the RSS feed for City of Sound, but I haven’t been making it that far down my feeds list in NetNewsWire. Today I found a couple of interesting posts that seem to merit more than just link-blogging. First, a pos…

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  17. SOAPbox Avatar

    Labelling as Service

    Dan Hill complains about the paucity of music information (which he calls metadata) provided by iTunes. This is a form of information asymmetry, which reflects an asymmetry of demand. One way out is to separate the provision of information from the pro…

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  18. k-märkt Avatar

    Dålig metadata dödar jazzen

    Läste två gamla artiklar idag och postar dem mest för att kunna hitta tillbaka till dem: The digital music era…

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  19. DJ Alchemi Avatar

    Classification of online music resources

    After four months of keeping my bookmarks on Furl, I thought it was time to reflect on some of what I’ve collected — particularly in the music resources topic. I…

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  20. Lee R Joby Avatar

    This site is devoted to the protection of copyright works, anti-piracy and promotion of legitimate music sources.

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  21. DJ Alchemi Avatar

    Classification of online music resources

    After four months of keeping my bookmarks on Furl, I thought it was time to reflect on some of what I’ve collected particularly in the music resources topic. I…

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  22. Dan Avatar

    Trackbacks sent to this post at the time (before I turned trackbacks off due to spam):


    » Metadata and music from Test
    Dan Hill points to this marvellous article from harlem.org on how the amount of information we have about the… [Read More]


    » MP3 blogs and the record labels from Phil Gyford’s Writing
    A roundtable discussion of MP3 bloggers seems remarkably optimistic about the record labels’ stance on people giving away their artists’ music. A flurry of letters from lawyers seems much more likely to me… [Read More]


    » itunes and crappy metadata from metamanda>>weblog
    A great article on how the inadequate tagging in iTunes (and iTunes music store) is hurting the preservation of music. harlem.org: itunes versus jazz preservation Removing the identity of artists is one of digital music’s largest threats to jazz preser… [Read More]


    » Installazione Sono-botanica Nella Città del Suono from Through The Wire
    Somewhere along the line I subscribed to the RSS feed for City of Sound, but I haven’t been making it that far down my feeds list in NetNewsWire. Today I found a couple of interesting posts that seem to merit more than just link-blogging. First, a pos… [Read More]


    » Labelling as Service from SOAPbox
    Dan Hill complains about the paucity of music information (which he calls metadata) provided by iTunes. This is a form of information asymmetry, which reflects an asymmetry of demand. One way out is to separate the provision of information from the pro… [Read More]


    » Dålig metadata dödar jazzen from k-märkt
    Läste två gamla artiklar idag och postar dem mest för att kunna hitta tillbaka till dem: The digital music era… [Read More]


    » Classification of online music resources from DJ Alchemi
    After four months of keeping my bookmarks on Furl, I thought it was time to reflect on some of what I’ve collected — particularly in the music resources topic. I… [Read More]

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  23. Matthew Dunn Avatar

    Nice thoughtful debate – seriously. But it seems to me you’re mistaking the package for the contents. Music was an integral and rich part of cultures besides the 20th century. The average resident of the US in 1880 was far more likely to make music themselves, and to listen to music (live performances of course) in the course of a week than was someone in 1980 – or today. The “XXX is killing music” that they’d lay on their kids was a screed about the danger of player-piano rolls.
    The richer ‘meta’ stuff – sleeves, liner notes, etc – will return. Arguably it’ll end up being richer than the physical tradition you’re mourning – in time. Massive legal and -more to the point- music-business-model changes are required first.
    You’ve got crappy metadata because the CD was an intentionally-compromised digital vehicle – there’s NO digital metadata on a CD. There’s no provision for any non-sound data! no high-res cover art, bios, links to interviews, etc. A few monopolistic companies have even tried to make supplying the minimal facts into a cash cow.
    The ‘extra’ stuff that goes with the music will most likely come from the consumers of that music, though–and that’s good. There’s no longer enough profit in music sales for the purveyors to subsidize all that extra stuff. Fine – we the enthusiasts will supply more and better. Look at Last.fm and Myspace as the ‘album art and liner notes’ of the future. Arguably there’s a great deal -more- information and context for a given band there, than you ever got from the record industry.
    Last point – just for fun – is that -because- music-itself is becoming digital there are new ways of expanding the core music-itself experience. Head on over to my place – http://www.musicip.com – we’ll help you explore those 10,00 tracks. Heck, we’ll even fix the boring factual metadata for you. Fer free.

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  24. Dan Avatar

    Thanks for that Matthew. I partly agree about the Last.fm point – or your own musicip.com – supplying some of the equivalent of album art and liner notes, and partly disagree. Because physical is different to digital. They’re not equivalent. See my much lengthier piece – New Musical Experiences – for my discussion on this, including the point you make about participation being greater a century ago.

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  25. a little late to the discussion, but... Avatar
    a little late to the discussion, but…

    I find it interesting that in the iTunes metadata pic, they don’t even have a field for “Label”. Not that I’m one to defend modern business’s desire to make everything we contact in our lives an assault of brand imprints — it’s a loathsome practice — but I see it as a more sinister move by Apple, to get people in the mode of thinking: “music doesn’t come from labels; it comes from iTunes.”
    Also, I know it’s being discussed (to no avail) elsewhere, but I’m compelled to add to any discussion of this nature: along with the travesty of missing metadata, there is the travesty of missing primary data — in the form of reduced quality of rendition — due to the ignorant treating AACs or MP3s like some sort of authoritative archive, when all they truly are is piles of lossily-compressed garbage.

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